Re: The Ideal We Must Keep Before Us -- The Mother's Talk
r: The supramental force, i think, can modify the body for its purpose more effectively than any of the primitive efforts of science can envisage. The plasticity in the body will come with its touch
rc: and where do you see any evidence for this? or is this simply belief? I simply do not find the casting aside of reason and science to be the goal of this yoga. Instead I believe that this tendency is more properly called religion or religiosity. rc
by rakesh on Thu 28 Dec 2006 04:33 AM PST Profile Permanent Link
Medical science that has been developed in western contries especially the medications have numerous side effects. Infact a large population dies becuase of those effects. Its attempt to cure a disease from cellular level is indeed a good one but its not a exact science. What is the science behind discovering medications? it is a hit and trial method without understanding the subtle energies that control the body. Each medication is specific to an organ or part of the body neglecting the other parts and hence the side effects. I am just reminding about the limitation of medical science to deal with the complex human physiology. Medical science has made great advancements in surgery and many more aspects but look at the serious limitations and understanding in the field of medications. Even in the understanding of the Genes, the scientists are attempting the same hit and trial methods by replacing a amino acid( deletion), or adding, etc . There are several factors that control the working of a gene and what they are trying to do is to manipulation with one or 2 factors and discover a medication. This method will undoubtedly have serious flaws. Hence a complete understanding of the body as a whole along with the subtle energies has to be made and not tring to resolve the problem only from the gene level.
Medical science that has been developed in western contries especially the medications have numerous side effects. Infact a large population dies becuase of those effects. Its attempt to cure a disease from cellular level is indeed a good one but its not a exact science. What is the science behind discovering medications? it is a hit and trial method without understanding the subtle energies that control the body. Each medication is specific to an organ or part of the body neglecting the other parts and hence the side effects. I am just reminding about the limitation of medical science to deal with the complex human physiology. Medical science has made great advancements in surgery and many more aspects but look at the serious limitations and understanding in the field of medications. Even in the understanding of the Genes, the scientists are attempting the same hit and trial methods by replacing a amino acid( deletion), or adding, etc . There are several factors that control the working of a gene and what they are trying to do is to manipulation with one or 2 factors and discover a medication. This method will undoubtedly have serious flaws. Hence a complete understanding of the body as a whole along with the subtle energies has to be made and not tring to resolve the problem only from the gene level.
by Rich on Thu 28 Dec 2006 04:49 AM PST Profile Permanent Link
I will personally vouch for the idiocracy of narrow mindedness of certain scientist who reduce everything to genes, or those who do not understand the limitations of allopathic medicine. And along with the influence of subtle energies one must also add the great impact of society and culture to understand the complexity of being human. However, Mother as we find in these quotes while understanding the limitations of science also harbors the hope that it will play a key role in the evolution of consciousness . In one place she calls doctors priest of the physical. So rather than dismiss science (or simply be outraged the arrogance of certain scientist) we should bring to bear on it a wider understanding of human nature and especially those insights given by SA/M and seek not to reject it but to assist in its transformation so it does become a more potent instrument of the spirit rc
I will personally vouch for the idiocracy of narrow mindedness of certain scientist who reduce everything to genes, or those who do not understand the limitations of allopathic medicine. And along with the influence of subtle energies one must also add the great impact of society and culture to understand the complexity of being human. However, Mother as we find in these quotes while understanding the limitations of science also harbors the hope that it will play a key role in the evolution of consciousness . In one place she calls doctors priest of the physical. So rather than dismiss science (or simply be outraged the arrogance of certain scientist) we should bring to bear on it a wider understanding of human nature and especially those insights given by SA/M and seek not to reject it but to assist in its transformation so it does become a more potent instrument of the spirit rc
by RY Deshpande on Thu 28 Dec 2006 03:16 AM PST Profile Permanent Link
I think we have to make a distinction between human destinies and post-human destinies. It is of course understood that the foundational basis, the support, adhara, is to be assured in terms of human destinies; it is only then can the higher spiritual and supraphysical powers and possibilities work here, in them, making them also progress. Human destinies can by a kind of bootstrap pulling themselves up, but they yet remaining in the human domain. It is true for science, arts, thought, physical culture, everything,—everything we are occupied with, in our present state of consciousness. For the real and authentic change to come something else has to happen; it is the post-human destinies which should start entering into the human destinies. They do so ever, but “it is not the same thing when we are in awakened and living communion with them.” The Mother has to see both the aspects in totality of their functioning. Presently there are limitations and imperfections and the work has got to be done under these circumstances. As Sri Aurobindo says, “there are powers of the nature still belonging to the mental region which are yet potentialities of a growing gnosis lifted beyond our human mentality and partaking of the light and power of the Divine and an ascent through these planes, a descent of them into the mental being might seem to be the natural evolutionary course. But in practice it might be found that these intermediate levels would not be sufficient for the total transformation. (I have added the emphasis) The Mother’s talk is in the context of “this progressive transformation”. She makes it clear that we must maintain our body, keep it fit, improve it and keep it in good health, because of the state of consciousness we are in; “our body is an instrument of our consciousness and this consciousness can act directly on it and obtain what it wants from it.” She then, while saying that this intellectual human science is, surprisingly enough, drawing closer and closer to the essential truth of the Spirit, also adds that “this is not a final realisation, nor is it the ideal to which we want to rise. There is a higher state than this, in which the consciousness, though it still remains principally mental or partially mental in its functioning, is already open to higher regions in an aspiration for the spiritual life, and open to the supramental influence.” That is the true sense of post- or trans-human destinies. For this “whatever is necessary has to be kept and furthered; but what has to be overpassed, whatever has no longer a use or is degraded, what has become unhelpful or retarding, can be discarded and dropped on the way. The necessary forms and instrumentations of Matter must remain since it is in a world of Matter that the divine life has to manifest, but their materiality must be refined, uplifted, ennobled, illumined, since Matter and the world of Matter have increasingly to manifest the indwelling Spirit.” About the chakras and the flow of subtle energies, it is another aspect. So also matters dealing with science. We will have to read the Mother's Agenda more and more for that. The Mother’s work of physical transformation has really remained ununderstood by us and we don’t know to what extent we can understand it in mental terms. But perhaps we could make an attempt, invoking her own light to illumine our dark continents and, if it is a human belief coming from its soul, surely it will come and lead us towards its certitude. RYD
I think we have to make a distinction between human destinies and post-human destinies. It is of course understood that the foundational basis, the support, adhara, is to be assured in terms of human destinies; it is only then can the higher spiritual and supraphysical powers and possibilities work here, in them, making them also progress. Human destinies can by a kind of bootstrap pulling themselves up, but they yet remaining in the human domain. It is true for science, arts, thought, physical culture, everything,—everything we are occupied with, in our present state of consciousness. For the real and authentic change to come something else has to happen; it is the post-human destinies which should start entering into the human destinies. They do so ever, but “it is not the same thing when we are in awakened and living communion with them.” The Mother has to see both the aspects in totality of their functioning. Presently there are limitations and imperfections and the work has got to be done under these circumstances. As Sri Aurobindo says, “there are powers of the nature still belonging to the mental region which are yet potentialities of a growing gnosis lifted beyond our human mentality and partaking of the light and power of the Divine and an ascent through these planes, a descent of them into the mental being might seem to be the natural evolutionary course. But in practice it might be found that these intermediate levels would not be sufficient for the total transformation. (I have added the emphasis) The Mother’s talk is in the context of “this progressive transformation”. She makes it clear that we must maintain our body, keep it fit, improve it and keep it in good health, because of the state of consciousness we are in; “our body is an instrument of our consciousness and this consciousness can act directly on it and obtain what it wants from it.” She then, while saying that this intellectual human science is, surprisingly enough, drawing closer and closer to the essential truth of the Spirit, also adds that “this is not a final realisation, nor is it the ideal to which we want to rise. There is a higher state than this, in which the consciousness, though it still remains principally mental or partially mental in its functioning, is already open to higher regions in an aspiration for the spiritual life, and open to the supramental influence.” That is the true sense of post- or trans-human destinies. For this “whatever is necessary has to be kept and furthered; but what has to be overpassed, whatever has no longer a use or is degraded, what has become unhelpful or retarding, can be discarded and dropped on the way. The necessary forms and instrumentations of Matter must remain since it is in a world of Matter that the divine life has to manifest, but their materiality must be refined, uplifted, ennobled, illumined, since Matter and the world of Matter have increasingly to manifest the indwelling Spirit.” About the chakras and the flow of subtle energies, it is another aspect. So also matters dealing with science. We will have to read the Mother's Agenda more and more for that. The Mother’s work of physical transformation has really remained ununderstood by us and we don’t know to what extent we can understand it in mental terms. But perhaps we could make an attempt, invoking her own light to illumine our dark continents and, if it is a human belief coming from its soul, surely it will come and lead us towards its certitude. RYD
by RY Deshpande on Thu 28 Dec 2006 06:07 AM PST Profile Permanent Link
Rich says: “…rather than dismiss science (or simply be outraged the arrogance of certain scientist) we should bring to bear on it a wider understanding of human nature and especially those insights given by SA/M and seek not to reject it but to assist in its transformation so it does become a more potent instrument of the spirit.” Thu 28 Dec 2006 04:49 AM PST Let me rush to congratulate Rich for this wonderful statement of his. In the Aurobindonian vision and work nothing is to be dismissed that can acquire soul-value and spirit-sense. The Mother herself said that it is the scientist who has the first chance for transformation, the politician the last. The scientist’s search for truth in the material world with the total sincerity of the pursuit is what qualifies him for this prize from the Mother. She was of course speaking of those who had made wonderful discoveries, like Mme Curie and her contemporaries. Sri Aurobindo calls JC Bose “a great Indian physicist” in The Life Divine. But what you are saying is also true of all ennobling human activities, every human activity, physical culture, arts, sciences, philosophies, rationalism, occultism, mysticism, literature, human studies, everything, man’s relationship with environment, care of the earth and the wild beast and the wind and the sea. This is what I was trying to indicate in my response to the Pollock discussion. From a professional point of view we might make impeccable and perfectly satisfying evaluations of his art, which is neither an accident in art nor art coming out of accident. What needs to be looked into things is the authentic spirit of aesthesis speaking about these matters in the possibilities of expression which is an aspect of progress and manifestation, human destinies approaching post-human possibilities. Sri Aurobindo gave the Overmind Aesthesis and it is that which must bear upon our judgement of all our creative effort. He wrote by way of an illustration The Future Poetry, but what he meant was also The Future Science, and so on. It is expected of us to explore the suns of truth-beauty-delight-life-spirit and live in their splendour. Congratulations again. RYD by Rich on Fri 29 Dec 2006 03:52 AM PST Profile Permanent Link thank you, but I guess I should qualify this by adding that it is only Them who should get the credit. all we can do is to be thankful for having had their guidance. I am delighted to see the link you have given between a Future Poetry and a Future Science, it is certainly an subject which I look forward to further explore with yourself and all aboard. rc
Rich says: “…rather than dismiss science (or simply be outraged the arrogance of certain scientist) we should bring to bear on it a wider understanding of human nature and especially those insights given by SA/M and seek not to reject it but to assist in its transformation so it does become a more potent instrument of the spirit.” Thu 28 Dec 2006 04:49 AM PST Let me rush to congratulate Rich for this wonderful statement of his. In the Aurobindonian vision and work nothing is to be dismissed that can acquire soul-value and spirit-sense. The Mother herself said that it is the scientist who has the first chance for transformation, the politician the last. The scientist’s search for truth in the material world with the total sincerity of the pursuit is what qualifies him for this prize from the Mother. She was of course speaking of those who had made wonderful discoveries, like Mme Curie and her contemporaries. Sri Aurobindo calls JC Bose “a great Indian physicist” in The Life Divine. But what you are saying is also true of all ennobling human activities, every human activity, physical culture, arts, sciences, philosophies, rationalism, occultism, mysticism, literature, human studies, everything, man’s relationship with environment, care of the earth and the wild beast and the wind and the sea. This is what I was trying to indicate in my response to the Pollock discussion. From a professional point of view we might make impeccable and perfectly satisfying evaluations of his art, which is neither an accident in art nor art coming out of accident. What needs to be looked into things is the authentic spirit of aesthesis speaking about these matters in the possibilities of expression which is an aspect of progress and manifestation, human destinies approaching post-human possibilities. Sri Aurobindo gave the Overmind Aesthesis and it is that which must bear upon our judgement of all our creative effort. He wrote by way of an illustration The Future Poetry, but what he meant was also The Future Science, and so on. It is expected of us to explore the suns of truth-beauty-delight-life-spirit and live in their splendour. Congratulations again. RYD by Rich on Fri 29 Dec 2006 03:52 AM PST Profile Permanent Link thank you, but I guess I should qualify this by adding that it is only Them who should get the credit. all we can do is to be thankful for having had their guidance. I am delighted to see the link you have given between a Future Poetry and a Future Science, it is certainly an subject which I look forward to further explore with yourself and all aboard. rc
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