Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Rich on Sat 25 Aug 2007 10:21 AM PDT Profile Permanent Link
There is a tendency to hate the other but yet see some of them as somehow different from the rest of the hated subgroup or at least they are more to ones liking. These folks are set up as an example of what all other members of that racial, ethnic, religious group should be. They are a token representative of their group. For example, Apj Abdul Kalam, the former president of India is seen as a "good Muslim" by Hindu groups who otherwise disdain the faith. (of course since he is seen as the father of the Indian (nuclear) bomb, and is himself a vegetarian goes someway in legitimizing him in the minds of many Hindus) This article of Mr Bari seems to be taken as such an example of a "good Muslim", for folks who would otherwise hate the Islamic other. But it is so much more important to go beyond the stereo types and tokenism to integrally assimilate the best in all faiths, while rejecting their dogmatism and fanaticism which besets their followers. In the Aurobindo Ashram it is no different. In fact one of the most prolific authors in the Ashram today, who has published many major compilations of Sri Aurobindo and Mother's works, as well as his own keen insights on integral psychology which was brought out by a major publisher in the US is Muslim. I am talking about Dr. Dalal So let me again quote an excerpt from quote from Ananda Reddy's paper as Sri Aurobindo responds to Hindu sectarianism. rc Sri Aurobindo: "If there is anybody in this Ashram who is a , Hindu sectarian hating Mahomedans and not opening to the Light in which all can overcome their limitations and in which all can be fulfilled (each religion or way of approaching the Divine contributing its own element of the truth, but all fused together and surpassed), then that Hindu sectarian is not a completely surrendered disciple of Sri Aurobindo. By his narrowness and hatred of others he is bringing an element of falsehood into the work that is being done here. "When I spoke of the outside world, I meant all outside including the Hindus and Christians and everyone else, all who have not yet accepted the greater Light that is coming. If this Ashram were here only to serve Hinduism I would not be in it and the Mother who was never a Hindu would not be in it.
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Srikanth on Mon 17 Sep 2007 03:33 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
"one of the most prolific authors in the Ashram today, ...is Muslim. I am talking about Dr. Dalal" Rich, It doesnt really matter to me for one's religious identity might dissolve or get diluted when attracted to Sri Aurobindo. And calling him muslim might not even fit. But is it factually true that Dr A. S. Dalal is/was Muslim. I am not so sure about your claim.
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Srikanth on Mon 17 Sep 2007 04:41 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
Rich - These folks are set up as an example of what all other members of that racial, ethnic, religious group should be. They are a token representative of their group. For example, Apj Abdul Kalam, the former president of India is seen as a "good Muslim" by Hindu groups who otherwise disdain the faith. (of course since he is seen as the father of the Indian (nuclear) bomb, and is himself a vegetarian goes someway in legitimizing him in the minds of many Hindus). Srikanth - Your sweeping conclusions about why Indians or Hindus might like or respect Abdul Kalam reveal once again how seriously deficient your understanding of India and Hindus is. Should I infer from what you say that if you held anything at all dear about Gandhi or Mao, Bill Clinton or even George W. Bush then you would be also obliged to accept everything in toto all they ever said, did or identified with?? Just because you accept Mother Teresa would you also accept Jerry Falwell or would you say that because you happen to think Islam is a great religion that Osama bin Laden or Aurangazeb should be embraced as well? If I admired the military skills of Churchill, should I accept his malevolence towards India or his religion? I dont quite see the logic in what you say here but only another example of your propensity to constantly denigrate Hindus. Do you really think Hindus are so irrational and as Islamophobic as you make them out to be? They would be irrational only if they developed what you seem to want them to - an undiscriminating mind.
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Rich on Mon 17 Sep 2007 06:05 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
Sri Kanth But is it factually true that Dr A. S. Dalal is/was Muslim. I am not so sure about your claim. Rich Well according to Khalil Dalal, a friend and a great jazz guitar player, with whom I do duets with from time to time, who happens to be Dr Dalal's son, the family heritage is Islamic Sri Kanth Do you really think Hindus are so irrational and as Islamophobic as you make them out to be? Rich: Well where did I make that claim? You know I'd really urge you to do a closer reading of these comments and post before jumping to conclusions, with no basis in fact Here is what I said: For example, Apj Abdul Kalam, the former president of India is seen as a "good Muslim" by Hindu groups who otherwise disdain the faith. Well a Hindu group is different from the entire Hindu religion is it not? There are individuals, groups, coalitions, and an entire class of all of the former, which would make up what is called a community. To not see the differences between a group and an entire community is a critical mistake in logical typing. And this is precisely what you have done here. For example, if I say, that group of kids are really rotten, does that mean the whole class of children are bad? Of course not, so you entire train of argument which follows from your initial mis-characterization is in fact without any merit. The thrust of my argument in the conversation you refer to was a response to the victimization literature circulated by communalist groups which simply spew hatred upon (in this case) the Islamic other. Yes, I do disdain the message of such Hindutva groups and especially those who couch their agenda in the works of Sri Aurobindo, but only a fool would confuse these factions of sub-continental extremist hate groups, with Hinduism itself. (Which is in my opinion the most tolerant of faiths) If you want a clarification on my feelings toward Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Globalization, or Groucho Marx then it would be best to directly ask the question before jumping to a conclusion which is entirely false rich Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Srikanth on Mon 17 Sep 2007 03:50 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
Shri Deshpande, going through your summary of what has been said about Mohammed by various people including Sri Aurobindo, it seems to me that he was as much or even more attractive figure than Jesus Christ. Jesus easily attracts the labels of compassionate, gentle, loving, spiritual, kind, benevolent etc etc. In your opinion do any or all these descriptions fit Mohammed too?
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by RY Deshpande on Tue 18 Sep 2007 06:44 AM PDT Profile Permanent Link
1. I suppose the Avatars and the Prophets and the Vibhutis come for different purposes, for doing different works, works which they do to establish something of the Higher in the earth-consciousness, establish in the soul of the earth—and that is all we need to realize. The rest is too human to be bothered about. 2. I am sorry to see the acrimonious turn the Hindu-Muslim debate is currently taking on the sciy. May I request Ronjon and Debashish to moderate it? Thanks. RYD
Reply
Rather Acrimonious
by RY Deshpande on Tue 18 Sep 2007 06:47 AM PDT Profile Permanent Link
I am sorry to see the acrimonious turn the Hindu-Muslim debate is currently taking on the sciy. May I request Ronjon and Debashish to moderate it? Thanks. RYD
Reply
Re: Rather Acrimonious
by ronjon on Tue 18 Sep 2007 12:17 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
I agree with RY's concern. Please, let us sincerely attempt to follow the Mother's advice in her 'Quote of the Day' posted yesterday:
It is only when we are not disturbed that we can always do the right thing at the right time in the right way. SCIY aspires to be an example of this way of being, and relating. Let us always strive to remember SCIY's vision statement, as stated by SCIY's founders:
Our Vision: To consider emerging planetary science and culture in the light of Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga through mutually respectful dialogue, creative imagination, critical inquiry and non-dual epistemologies.If this protocol is repeatedly violated, I will not hesitate to ban the person(s) involved from further participation in SCIY.Thank you,~ ronjonRon AnastasiaSCIY Founding Editor
Reply
Re: Re: Rather Acrimonious
by ronjon on Wed 19 Sep 2007 01:22 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
I have deleted Srikanth's most recent reply because it is clearly acrimonious. I did not however ban Srikanth from SCIY because I think it's possible that he doesn't fully understand the context for what we mean by the phrase "mutually respectful." The protocol is violated with personalized attacks on a discussant's character or motivation. E.g., in his deleted comment, Srikanth specifically characterizes Rich Carlson in strongly negative terms. On the other hand, Srikanth accuses Rich of initiating acrimony by posting "ideologically driven" articles or comments; e.g., about groups such as Hindutva, articles by Noam Chomsky re the Hindu diaspora, and in his reviews of Jyothirmaya Sharma and Kittu Reddy's books. It is certainly true that Rich has strong personal opinions about these (& many other!) subjects, but expressing one's strong opinions about various subjects does not violate SCIY's mutually-respectful protocol. I hope the distinction is clearer. The protocol is violated when one participant in an SCIY discussion personally disparages another participant. It is not violated with strongly expressed opinions about the subject under discussion. To do so is in fact part of SCIY's mission of encouraging "critical inquiry." Srikanth also criticizes Rich for "posting articles several of which had little to do with Sri Aurobindo." But SCIY's Vision Statement includes such articles in the phrase "To consider emerging planetary science and culture in the light of Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga." This does not imply that every posted article must explicitly refer to Sri Aurobindo. This is stated by SCIY's Mission and Goals: Our Mission: To discern trends within contemporary arts, sciences and technologies which appear to facilitate (or not) the co-evolution of integral spirituality, scientific research and emerging planetary culture. Our Goals: To foster intra- and inter-community dialog among those who actively aspire to create a terrestrial environment which will advance an integral evolution of consciousness and thus a world of increasing truth, beauty and sustainable human unity. Finally, I'd like to respectfully invite Srikanth to continue with his participation in SCIY, in the hope that he'll abide by SCIY's mutually respectful dialogue protocol now that I've further specified the distinctions it implies. ~ ronjon RonJon Anastasia SCIY Founding Editor
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Rather Acrimonious
by rakesh on Wed 19 Sep 2007 06:13 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
Ronjon, you have done the right thing! If we are true seekers of truth by critical enquiry or group discussion of the subject there is no place for personal attacks on the disscussants moreover doing so brings mental suffering unto us. Unless we grow into the cosmic consciousness and understand the play of forces behind the events we only see one side of the story with the limited mind. So whose opinion is right? We do not see the truth we only opine. Hope this forum brings light and greater understanging among us. I really appreciate Ronjon for clearly stating about the protocol. I was also thinking exactly the same thing.
by Rich on Sat 25 Aug 2007 10:21 AM PDT Profile Permanent Link
There is a tendency to hate the other but yet see some of them as somehow different from the rest of the hated subgroup or at least they are more to ones liking. These folks are set up as an example of what all other members of that racial, ethnic, religious group should be. They are a token representative of their group. For example, Apj Abdul Kalam, the former president of India is seen as a "good Muslim" by Hindu groups who otherwise disdain the faith. (of course since he is seen as the father of the Indian (nuclear) bomb, and is himself a vegetarian goes someway in legitimizing him in the minds of many Hindus) This article of Mr Bari seems to be taken as such an example of a "good Muslim", for folks who would otherwise hate the Islamic other. But it is so much more important to go beyond the stereo types and tokenism to integrally assimilate the best in all faiths, while rejecting their dogmatism and fanaticism which besets their followers. In the Aurobindo Ashram it is no different. In fact one of the most prolific authors in the Ashram today, who has published many major compilations of Sri Aurobindo and Mother's works, as well as his own keen insights on integral psychology which was brought out by a major publisher in the US is Muslim. I am talking about Dr. Dalal So let me again quote an excerpt from quote from Ananda Reddy's paper as Sri Aurobindo responds to Hindu sectarianism. rc Sri Aurobindo: "If there is anybody in this Ashram who is a , Hindu sectarian hating Mahomedans and not opening to the Light in which all can overcome their limitations and in which all can be fulfilled (each religion or way of approaching the Divine contributing its own element of the truth, but all fused together and surpassed), then that Hindu sectarian is not a completely surrendered disciple of Sri Aurobindo. By his narrowness and hatred of others he is bringing an element of falsehood into the work that is being done here. "When I spoke of the outside world, I meant all outside including the Hindus and Christians and everyone else, all who have not yet accepted the greater Light that is coming. If this Ashram were here only to serve Hinduism I would not be in it and the Mother who was never a Hindu would not be in it.
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Srikanth on Mon 17 Sep 2007 03:33 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
"one of the most prolific authors in the Ashram today, ...is Muslim. I am talking about Dr. Dalal" Rich, It doesnt really matter to me for one's religious identity might dissolve or get diluted when attracted to Sri Aurobindo. And calling him muslim might not even fit. But is it factually true that Dr A. S. Dalal is/was Muslim. I am not so sure about your claim.
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Srikanth on Mon 17 Sep 2007 04:41 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
Rich - These folks are set up as an example of what all other members of that racial, ethnic, religious group should be. They are a token representative of their group. For example, Apj Abdul Kalam, the former president of India is seen as a "good Muslim" by Hindu groups who otherwise disdain the faith. (of course since he is seen as the father of the Indian (nuclear) bomb, and is himself a vegetarian goes someway in legitimizing him in the minds of many Hindus). Srikanth - Your sweeping conclusions about why Indians or Hindus might like or respect Abdul Kalam reveal once again how seriously deficient your understanding of India and Hindus is. Should I infer from what you say that if you held anything at all dear about Gandhi or Mao, Bill Clinton or even George W. Bush then you would be also obliged to accept everything in toto all they ever said, did or identified with?? Just because you accept Mother Teresa would you also accept Jerry Falwell or would you say that because you happen to think Islam is a great religion that Osama bin Laden or Aurangazeb should be embraced as well? If I admired the military skills of Churchill, should I accept his malevolence towards India or his religion? I dont quite see the logic in what you say here but only another example of your propensity to constantly denigrate Hindus. Do you really think Hindus are so irrational and as Islamophobic as you make them out to be? They would be irrational only if they developed what you seem to want them to - an undiscriminating mind.
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Rich on Mon 17 Sep 2007 06:05 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
Sri Kanth But is it factually true that Dr A. S. Dalal is/was Muslim. I am not so sure about your claim. Rich Well according to Khalil Dalal, a friend and a great jazz guitar player, with whom I do duets with from time to time, who happens to be Dr Dalal's son, the family heritage is Islamic Sri Kanth Do you really think Hindus are so irrational and as Islamophobic as you make them out to be? Rich: Well where did I make that claim? You know I'd really urge you to do a closer reading of these comments and post before jumping to conclusions, with no basis in fact Here is what I said: For example, Apj Abdul Kalam, the former president of India is seen as a "good Muslim" by Hindu groups who otherwise disdain the faith. Well a Hindu group is different from the entire Hindu religion is it not? There are individuals, groups, coalitions, and an entire class of all of the former, which would make up what is called a community. To not see the differences between a group and an entire community is a critical mistake in logical typing. And this is precisely what you have done here. For example, if I say, that group of kids are really rotten, does that mean the whole class of children are bad? Of course not, so you entire train of argument which follows from your initial mis-characterization is in fact without any merit. The thrust of my argument in the conversation you refer to was a response to the victimization literature circulated by communalist groups which simply spew hatred upon (in this case) the Islamic other. Yes, I do disdain the message of such Hindutva groups and especially those who couch their agenda in the works of Sri Aurobindo, but only a fool would confuse these factions of sub-continental extremist hate groups, with Hinduism itself. (Which is in my opinion the most tolerant of faiths) If you want a clarification on my feelings toward Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Globalization, or Groucho Marx then it would be best to directly ask the question before jumping to a conclusion which is entirely false rich Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by Srikanth on Mon 17 Sep 2007 03:50 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
Shri Deshpande, going through your summary of what has been said about Mohammed by various people including Sri Aurobindo, it seems to me that he was as much or even more attractive figure than Jesus Christ. Jesus easily attracts the labels of compassionate, gentle, loving, spiritual, kind, benevolent etc etc. In your opinion do any or all these descriptions fit Mohammed too?
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Untold Potentialities: India and the Third World. by Richard Hartz
by RY Deshpande on Tue 18 Sep 2007 06:44 AM PDT Profile Permanent Link
1. I suppose the Avatars and the Prophets and the Vibhutis come for different purposes, for doing different works, works which they do to establish something of the Higher in the earth-consciousness, establish in the soul of the earth—and that is all we need to realize. The rest is too human to be bothered about. 2. I am sorry to see the acrimonious turn the Hindu-Muslim debate is currently taking on the sciy. May I request Ronjon and Debashish to moderate it? Thanks. RYD
Reply
Rather Acrimonious
by RY Deshpande on Tue 18 Sep 2007 06:47 AM PDT Profile Permanent Link
I am sorry to see the acrimonious turn the Hindu-Muslim debate is currently taking on the sciy. May I request Ronjon and Debashish to moderate it? Thanks. RYD
Reply
Re: Rather Acrimonious
by ronjon on Tue 18 Sep 2007 12:17 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
I agree with RY's concern. Please, let us sincerely attempt to follow the Mother's advice in her 'Quote of the Day' posted yesterday:
It is only when we are not disturbed that we can always do the right thing at the right time in the right way. SCIY aspires to be an example of this way of being, and relating. Let us always strive to remember SCIY's vision statement, as stated by SCIY's founders:
Our Vision: To consider emerging planetary science and culture in the light of Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga through mutually respectful dialogue, creative imagination, critical inquiry and non-dual epistemologies.If this protocol is repeatedly violated, I will not hesitate to ban the person(s) involved from further participation in SCIY.Thank you,~ ronjonRon AnastasiaSCIY Founding Editor
Reply
Re: Re: Rather Acrimonious
by ronjon on Wed 19 Sep 2007 01:22 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
I have deleted Srikanth's most recent reply because it is clearly acrimonious. I did not however ban Srikanth from SCIY because I think it's possible that he doesn't fully understand the context for what we mean by the phrase "mutually respectful." The protocol is violated with personalized attacks on a discussant's character or motivation. E.g., in his deleted comment, Srikanth specifically characterizes Rich Carlson in strongly negative terms. On the other hand, Srikanth accuses Rich of initiating acrimony by posting "ideologically driven" articles or comments; e.g., about groups such as Hindutva, articles by Noam Chomsky re the Hindu diaspora, and in his reviews of Jyothirmaya Sharma and Kittu Reddy's books. It is certainly true that Rich has strong personal opinions about these (& many other!) subjects, but expressing one's strong opinions about various subjects does not violate SCIY's mutually-respectful protocol. I hope the distinction is clearer. The protocol is violated when one participant in an SCIY discussion personally disparages another participant. It is not violated with strongly expressed opinions about the subject under discussion. To do so is in fact part of SCIY's mission of encouraging "critical inquiry." Srikanth also criticizes Rich for "posting articles several of which had little to do with Sri Aurobindo." But SCIY's Vision Statement includes such articles in the phrase "To consider emerging planetary science and culture in the light of Sri Aurobindo's integral yoga." This does not imply that every posted article must explicitly refer to Sri Aurobindo. This is stated by SCIY's Mission and Goals: Our Mission: To discern trends within contemporary arts, sciences and technologies which appear to facilitate (or not) the co-evolution of integral spirituality, scientific research and emerging planetary culture. Our Goals: To foster intra- and inter-community dialog among those who actively aspire to create a terrestrial environment which will advance an integral evolution of consciousness and thus a world of increasing truth, beauty and sustainable human unity. Finally, I'd like to respectfully invite Srikanth to continue with his participation in SCIY, in the hope that he'll abide by SCIY's mutually respectful dialogue protocol now that I've further specified the distinctions it implies. ~ ronjon RonJon Anastasia SCIY Founding Editor
Reply
Re: Re: Re: Rather Acrimonious
by rakesh on Wed 19 Sep 2007 06:13 PM PDT Profile Permanent Link
Ronjon, you have done the right thing! If we are true seekers of truth by critical enquiry or group discussion of the subject there is no place for personal attacks on the disscussants moreover doing so brings mental suffering unto us. Unless we grow into the cosmic consciousness and understand the play of forces behind the events we only see one side of the story with the limited mind. So whose opinion is right? We do not see the truth we only opine. Hope this forum brings light and greater understanging among us. I really appreciate Ronjon for clearly stating about the protocol. I was also thinking exactly the same thing.
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