our article on the leftism of Nehru & Bose sringeribelur.wordpress.com/nehru-subhas-a Bose had defined leftism as uncompromising opposition to British imperialism. It is in that sense he was leftist. In that sense he said Aurobindo & Tilak were leftists too. Conflation is misleading:
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After Menas's first sentence (whose use of "duality" is ambiguous) the rest isn't about mathematics, but (at best) a form of metamathematics that only a look at the source can make Menas's inchoate description intelligible.
Bruno Marchal's talk of universal machines is not especially relevant to consciousness the way he presents it. They are computers that can implement any finite algorithm/program. Human minds and physical machines are bound by time, so there is an upper limit to how long such an algorithm can be.
The listing of Alan Turing may be a source of confusion: universal machines have nothing to do with the poorly defined and methodologically unsound "Turing Test." In his original essay on it, Turing sweeps the whole issue of consciousness under the rug. Thus "thinking" becomes, by definition, passing Turing's ill-conceived test.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/BN8PR19MB27851C63BF42AAB10868930A879E0%40BN8PR19MB2785.namprd19.prod.outlook.com
Dear Paul and Vinod Kumar (Sehgal: VKS) and all,
Neuroscience is agnostic on astral world or noosphere; this doesn’t mean the former rejects the latter. To establish astral world scientifically yogi SPD (Dubey) needs to do experiments from scratch as I elaborated in letter to yogi SPD.
To understand VKS’ 7 queries, first, we need to understand the highly respected James’ “I” (self-as-subject) which seems to be “metaphysical (beyond physical brain) self” as elaborated in my letter to VKS.
My working hypothesis is that James’ “I” might be linked to dual-aspect Brahman; the latter is elaborated in dual-aspect Cit-acit Vishishtadvaita Vedanta and dual-aspect Shiva-Shakti in Kashmir Shaivism. If this is true, then “metaphysical self” might survive physical death. Then we can bring science and religions closer in a natural manner without any compromise.
Kind regards
Ram
On May 3, 2020, at 8:59 AM, Paul Werbos paul.werbos@gmail.com wrote: Many practitioners of astral travel claim that the "seven bodies" and "astral body" theory of OOBE is a delusion. More precisely, the mind has the power to PROJECT a humanoid body form with two legs and two arms, etc., just as it has the power to project tables and chairs and walls, into "the astral plane," a space of mental constructs similar to Internet chatrooms. Are those internet chatrooms (as in Second Life) real or are they delusions? Well, they are real IMAGES in the internet, capable of exchanging REAL information, but they are not as real as physical human bodies or chairs. At higher levels, people learn that they can CHANGE what they (or even others) project; some rightly talk about rising from the astral level to the mental level, where they directly engage with the IDEAS and THOUGHTS, which are the actual reality of that space. I am SO grateful to Dubey for his latest message, ever so honest and ever so well grounded in his experience. It reminds me of a GREAT TREE image of the noosphere which Yeshua and I have discussed on his list. More and more, I doubt and question SO MANY things, but it becomes ever more definite and clear that all of us humans are PART of the larger local whole of this solar system, and that our CONNECTIONS are the main "psi" or "siddhi" we have. NONE of us are fully connected to the whole tree, let alone the sky it reaches for, but Dubey has talked about real and important connections to what he sees in his own body. Nancy du Terte has ALSO been clear and honest in discussing important connections she has made. Those healing connections to the body remind me of a deceptively simple collection of stories, the Gateway series by Orson Scott Card. I bought those little books at a time when I needed to relax, and they were entertaining and calming. But by the end, I was startled to see his authentic connections with the same level which Dubey talks about, as aspect which Yeshua has understood and experienced more than I did. Still -- to connect with authentic, nonfundamentalist neuroscience, I WISH I had asked Walter Freeman more about his collaboration with students of qi gong near Nanjing. The truth is a global phenomenon (and more), of course, and there is more to be learned there. In truth, it was a variant of qi gong which was most useful to me in dealing with that level in my visit to Japan and Korea last October and November, when physical survival and health became unavoidable issues.
Email message from Vinod Sehgal to Ram and Forum members Dear Ram, I shall pose questions on these articles afterwards. Presently, I repeat the following questions which you have not replied. These questions are
1) During the lab conditions, when TPJ of the brains of subjects are stimulated, they experience OOBEs. From this neuroscientist infer that there are no real OOBEs in the sense that no astral body gets out of the physical body. But there is all the likelihood that stimulation of TPJ could be serving as a trigger for the exist of the astral body implying real OOBEs ( after all a number of yogis have reported of the ontological existence of the astral body). My Ist question to you as to from these experiments on TPJ, how it can be concluded that stimulation of TPJ does not serves as a trigger for the exist of astral body and hence real OOBEs?
2) Based upon the above mentioned lab exp on TPJ, a number of neuroscientists including you have been of the opinion that during Samaadhi state, yogis have only a SE of the fake OOBEs but otherwise no astral body gets out of the physical body. My second question to you: in the lab conditions, one can understand that electric stimulation could be causing TPJ activation but why and how such activation of TPJ should take place at all during Samadhi state by yogis.
3) My 3rd question. When and where TPJ activation has been detected and measured in the brain of yogis under real and deep Samaadhi when they experience real OOBEs. Without actual empirical studies, how can you assume that there is TPJ activation during Samaadhi state by yogis when they experience OOBEs? 4) My 4th question. If we may assume hypothetically that during Samaadhi state there is the activation of TPJ, a question arises as to how you/ neuroscientist can eliminate the likelihood that there is the actual exit of the astral body from the physical body ( after all that is what has been found by yogis during Samaadhi state) and the TPJ activation is the effect of the exit of the astral body from the physical body
5) My 5th question. It has been reported by yogis as well as non yogis who experience OOBEs that they see their own physical body and brain AT A DISTANCE. From this one can presume safely that Visual Cortex ( VC) of the brain is also at a distance from the yogi which is also being seen by the yogi. If VC itself is being seen by the yogi AT A DISTANCE, how you/ neuroscientist can infer that OOBES are some effect of the VC of the brain and that there are no real OOBEs?
6) Neuroscience has never tested quite enlightened advanced level yogis under deep and real Samaadhi state for any SE? Without testing, how neuroscientist can assume that Samaadhi state SEs have NCCs. This is my 6th question.
7) My 7th question. Assuming hypothetically that Samaadhi state SEs have NCCs. The purpose of your long standing demand to bring yogis in Samaadhi under fMRI/ EEG studies has been to prove that there is no astral body and that these NCCs are the NPBs. But a number of yogis from many spiritual traditions have reported of the ontological existence of the astral body/ mind and any SE being initiated and processed at the level of the astral mind. Therefore, there is the presence of some subjective evidence in favour of the astral mind/ astral body. Therefore, the NCCs should be NPEs and not NPBS. So my 7th question to you is: how neuroscientist can establish that detected NCCs are NPBs and not NPEs? You may argue that neuroscience does not recognise astral body and hence the observed NCCs are not NPEs. But your this argument is self contradictory. Why? Since the whole purpose of bringing yogis in Samaadhi state had been to prove that there is no astral body and if neuroscientist ASSUME that there is no astral body, the whole purpose of such studies get defeated.
Ok above are my 7 questions. Have you any clear and convincing answer.? If yes please respond in a specific and serialized manner. If no better to keep silent. But please don't dilute and divert from the above issues. Regards. Vinod Sehgal
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‘Science and Scientist’ conferences have been organized since 2013 and attracted participants from all around the world to discuss progress in their state of the art research on the deeper reality of Life, Consciousness, and origin of Life and Matter. The theme of Science and Scientist 2020 is Understanding the Subject/Object, Mind/Body Unity. Its sessions will include the recent and most important conceptual development on fundamental questions in the various thematic sessions, including: ‘what is Matter?’; ‘what is Life?’; ‘origin of Matter, Consciousness and Life’; ‘Subject-Object relationship’; ‘Mind-Body relationship’; ‘distinction in nature of unity in Mechanical, Chemical and Biological systems’ and so on. Science and Scientist 2020 will highlight new conceptual and methodological developments, and most original findings and hypotheses as well as original ideas presented by a new generation of scientists and philosophers.
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute
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