May 01, 2017

Human child is more mature than a kangaroo baby

Dear Whit, Avtar and Priyedarshi,

All laws  exist in   and  emerge out from consciousness. This we observe  in our daily life in the areas of technology, IT and  social life. At the localized level, laws emrrgre  from the conscious  mind. Once emerged out of the conscious mind, laws get  transposed in the entity to which such laws pertain to. For example. , laws pertaining to the working of an aeroplane take birth from  a conscious mind and transposed to the design and structure of the plane.

At  the macro/ cosmological level, design, creation of the universe is much much more complex than  any man  made product.. Therefore.creation of the universe can't proceed ahead blindly as some  accident  or randomly  as some hit and trial. Initiation  for the creation of universe, chartering  across during the  course of creation  of the universe and working of the nature in present course of action in nature must be governed by some pre-existing Laws. Since before  the creation of the universe, there is no space/time/matter/energy, therefore, laws of creation pertaining to these entities can't reside  in such  entities. Laws pertaining to programming  of a computer  can't exist  in a computer  before the hardware  of a computer is ready. Similarly, laws of creation of the universe pertaining  to. space/time/matter/energy  can't reside in such entities before such entities take  birth. In view of this, all such laws pertaining to the creation of universe  take birth from the womb of the cosmic  consciousness  which is absolute  in nature  having no parallel with any thing in the universe. In different spiritual traditions, the aggregate if all such laws  has been indicated by different names. In Upanishadjc tradition, the aggregate  of all such laws of creation has been termed as " Shabada". In modern physics, aggregate if all laws  of the creation has been termed as "Information"
One more interesting aspect. Propagator  of any Laws  also retains the power to alter  the laws as per His will and requirement. This  we observe in our daily  worldly life also. Therefore, cosmic  consciousness, which is the propagator  of all laws of the universe, can also  alter  any one of such Laws  as per His Will and requirement.. When some great fully realized Saints/Yogis, who have identified with cosmic consciousness, take any "Sankalapa" (Resolution) to accomplish something special in nature which is treated as supernatural, nature alters  its Laws temporarily  and locally in order to Sankalapa of the Saint/Yogi to fulfil. But people who dub such  supernatural powers of  some  true and fully  realised  Saints /Yogis as frauds or illusions  or dreams forget the principle that propagator  of Laws can also  alter Laws at any time as per His will and  requirements in nature.

Regards.
Vinod Sehgal 
Apr 30, 2017
...

Vinod,

You commit an elementary fallacy. You conflate discovery of the law with the law itself. Then you jump to a completely unwarranted conclusion that one who understands or first comes to know a law is the creator of the law. This is not even worth commenting upon. I might as well say I cause the sun to rise every day because I perceive it as rising. And what about consciousness? Where does it emerge from? Even those who believe in consciousness or mind usually claim that at some point in evolution mind and consciousness emerged from the physical world. I do not accept that as well but it is a bit more plausible. You continue to beg the question, hence leaving no room for debate. You always begin with Consciousness is the cause of everything. But what is consciousness? Please do not ask, it is beyond human knowledge unless you are specially endowed with extra-evolutionary skills.

Priyedarshi
Apr 30, 2017

Token awareness like the typing on the keyboard is attention and as abstracted from pure awareness. Pure awareness does exist even without particular awareness i.e attention but its inverse not true. Pure awareness is like a large tank full of water and particular awareness is like a drain extracted from that tank in a particular direction, There is no meaning of the drain of water without tank full of water. Similarly, there is no meaning of particular awareness without pure awareness. There is also a state of awareness when awareness is aware of itself only This state happens in the state of a particular Samaadhi.

Awareness is an inbuilt attribute or state (the exact word in Sanskrit is Swaruupa) of consciousness.

Vinod Sehgal.
Apr 30, 2017

Vinod,

All correct about computers and implausible about awareness. Your analogies are getting staid and boring as they are off the track. The type-token distinction is technical in philosophy and philosophy of mind so just forget about it unless you get interested in the literature in philosophy of mind going back to the 50s.

Priyedarshi
May 1, 2017

Dear Dr Bhakti Nishkama Shantaji and Sarvesh Gyawaliji,

Thanks.

The human child is the weakest amongst children of all species in terms of physical development, learning new skills and adjusting to the vagaries of the environment. God or nature has deliberately designed it so. Human has to set up a family and society with strong and long term filial relations. In other species, the idea of family is not very strong and whatever family relations exist last for very short period.  Due to strong dependency of the human child on mother and other family members, the idea of a family takes roots which lead to a well-knit society. This, in turn, leads to the evolution of civilization having all the material, scientific and spiritual knowledge and development.

Regards
Vinod sehgal
Apr 30, 2017

Shanta,

Quite loaded with standard presumptions. What or who is an "intelligent being". Are bees not intelligent? They are more intelligent than humans in some aspects. To first place humans above other animals and then call them intelligent and then say that they come from an even more intelligent being is not a very convincing argument I am afraid.

As for needing help from those who have higher knowledge, I do not like the authoritative tint you give it. The pedagogical message of Buddha, Scocrates, Confucious, Christ and many others is that knowledge is to be sought by the knower, who can be guided by a wise person but the wise person cannot impart knowledge to the knower. In the case of Socrates he can only help others gain knowledge because he himself does not have knowledge. It is a completely anti-authoritarian account of knowledge. If you say some have higher knowledge than others you will get caught in an authoritarian vicious circle. Who will decide that X has higher knowledge than I do. There will be some Y who has higher knowledge than X and I who can decide that. Then there will have to be a Z who has higher knowledge than Y to decide on the authority of Y to make the decision he does. And so on..... 

Priyedarshi
Apr 30, 2017

Vinod,

Your history of human species is quite myopic. The family is only about 10,000 years or 15,000 years old. This is not even 2% of human history. Surely you do not want to deny 98% of the first part of human history without a family.

Priyedarshi
May 1, 2017
...

Dear Vinod Sehgal,

Human child is not the weakest among the children of all species. Ask a zoologist.
We are definitely less mature than other ape children, but for example definitely more mature than a kangaroo baby.
As for family, ape children do depend on their mom for quite a long time. But they are not monogamous, and thus our usual definition of family being mom-dad-kid does not apply to them. Gorillas come the closest with dad-moms-kids.
There are monogamous monkeys (like gibbons), they have families, but not groups of higher level.

best wishes,
 Ádám
May 1, 2017
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org 

Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.
Unfortunately, we do not have scientific evidence of astral, causal, and manifested consciousness worlds. These are terms used in Sāṅkhya, which has 8 serious problems. We have scientific evidence of only physical world. The rest we have already discussed. Please see Section 3.15 of (Vimal, 2016b). Whatever is experienced in Samadhi state by yogis is of no help to use Sāṅkhya’s term astral mind because it is their personal experiences, not mine or yours. In addition, Vedāntists and Buddhists contradict and these experiences depend on yogi to yogi and their background learning on metaphysics. Therefore, it is simply not useful. This we have discussed many times. As I suggested before, if you want to defend Sāṅkhya you need to address its 8 problems. The problems and previous efforts in their resolution are elaborated in Chapter 2 (Section 2.4 for Sāṅkhya) of (Vimal, 2012c).

The reality is of two types: MDR (mind-dependent reality) and MIR (mind-independent reality) in our physical world, not in any fictitious astral or other worlds which none of us has experienced and has no scientific evidence. We cannot depend on others’ experiences.
Kind regards,
Rām
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Continue from my previous email:
Dear Vinod ji,
An inert (non-living) system usually has one or more function. A function is a functional sub-aspect of consciousness as elaborated in (Vimal, 2009f). Therefore, it can be included as a part of the mental aspect. The experiential sub-aspect of an inert system is latent in the sense of the superposition of basis states; the relevant ontic states (that are included in Hilbert system) are the basis states. Further details are given in the Section 3.15 of (Vimal, 2016b).

Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

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